I had not planned on writing another post here at Via Meadia so soon, but Abraham Foxman’s well-meaning but patently incorrect statement about the proposed Islamic Center in downtown Manhattan has me so worked up that I am compelled to share my views.
I have residences both in the United States and in the United Kingdom. In the United Kingdom I have a German friend, perhaps my only German friend. One day she asked if I might like to visit her in Germany some day and I hesitated before giving a vague “not really” sort of answer. It told her that I thought I would be somewhat uncomfortable. I know that I am not alone among Jews, or even among Allied veterans and their offspring in feeling somewhat uncomfortable around Germans. I can imagine that seeing an Islamic Center so close to Ground Zero will provoke a similar unease in many American visitors to the site.
While none of these feelings are entirely rational, I know that my friend is not a Nazi and that I’d probably enjoy Berlin, I know I’d be quite uncomfortable there (and it would kill my parents). The unease that many would feel at seeing an Islamic Center at Ground Zero is perfectly natural, but again– it is not rational. It is not rational and, more importantly, it is our (those of us who feel this way) problem, not the institution’s or its future patrons.
The calls of so many on the Right (many of whom not only do not live in New York City, but do not consider it part of “real America”) to bar the construction of this building are only further evidence of ignorance and Islamophobia. Ignorance not only about Islam, but also about New York City and how here, unlike in much of America, Mosques and large (non-Christian) religious cultural centers are not much of a big deal.
Regardless of what any of us feel about the construction of this building, in the United States we do not allow the government to make zoning decisions based on religion. As the New York Times reported, Mayor Bloomberg rightly said, “government has no place dictating where a house of worship is located.” Not to mention the powerful message it sends to the Muslim world– that we can tolerate a mosque and Islamic Center in the shadow of no towers (to borrow Art Spiegelman’s phrase) because we do not have a problem with Islam. Any problems we have are with particular interpretations of Islam and with Islamic terrorism.
I should add, however, that if the planners and funders of the Islamic Center are surprised by any of this controversy then they are shockingly naïve. That they have the right to build there and that it actually suits American foreign policy goals does not mean that the choice of location does not contain a hint of provocation (imagine if Germany built its consulates in sight of Holocaust memorials).
It is totally understandable that some 9/11 families would oppose this building; but they do not have veto power over construction in one of the most heavily trafficked neighborhoods in America. It is a local issue for the people of downtown Manhattan to address. I am a great admirer of Dr. Foxman and the Anti-Defamation League, and I can forgive this lapse into the bigotry they fight so boldly against, I just hope it is an aberration and not a trend in the wrong direction.
I thank Anna Pycior for her comments on a draft of this post.
“we do not have a problem with Islam. Any problems we have are with particular interpretations of Islam and with Islamic terrorism”.
Yes we do. There’re no “interpretations of Islam” which are shared by more then a roomful of people that would make 9/11 a religious impossibility. Jihad is a pillar of Islam. Exploiting and abusing the unbelievers is a pillar of Islam. Killing those who wish to leave Islam is a pillar of Islam. Until we start treating Islam as it is – a totalitarian ideology aiming to conquer the world – we’ll keep losing our battles, and in the end we will lose those freedoms you’re trying to defend from the ADL.
“Not to mention the powerful message it sends to the Muslim world– that we can tolerate a mosque and Islamic Center in the shadow of no towers (to borrow Art Spiegelman’s phrase) because we do not have a problem with Islam. Any problems we have are with particular interpretations of Islam and with Islamic terrorism.”
Do you have any evidence besides your own wishes that the mosque will send a message of tolerance and not one of triumph over the infidels?
This is just wrong. I’ve been in many rooms with many Muslims who do not believe in killing or oppressing people of different religions. There are well over a billion Muslims in the world and there is an enormous variety of viewpoints to be found in Islam. Having traveled through the Islamic world from the homes of the Cape Malays in South Africa to the homes of senior Islamic clergy in Indonesia, I can tell you that I’ve encountered everything from rigid intolerance to urbane syncretism in Islam, just as I’ve found it in Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism. This is not to deny that the problems of fanaticism and violence exist in the Islamic world or in any way to minimize the dangers we face. But it is just plain ignorant and wrong to say that tolerant and freedom loving Muslims do not exist. They do. I meet them all the time — in the far corners of the earth and in my own neighborhood in glamorous Queens.
Don’t get too hung up on official doctrines and formal statements. There are many odd verses in the Jewish and Christian scriptures as well. For most of its history, the vast majority of Christian theologians believed that the persecution of heresy was a moral duty. Many Christians believed that to be an anti-Semite was to please God. And, of course, the popes, widely considered infallible guides to Christian faith, proclaimed one ‘holy war’ after another.
“I meet them all the time — in the far corners of the earth and in my own neighborhood in glamorous Queens.” (Walter Russell Mead)
Actually Queens is populated by a large number of diverse Muslim communities; the vast majority of Muslims living in Queens are fully integrated into American society; they are loyal Americans and only desire to live their lives in quiet dignity.
Neighborhoods in Queens that have large numbers of Muslims (and Muslim houses of worship) include Astoria, Corona, Jackson Heights, Flushing, Sunnyside, Woodside, Woodhaven Laurelton and Saint Albans.
Among the Muslim communities well-represented in Queens are: Bengalis, Pakistanis, Indian-Muslims, Bosnian Muslims, Albanian-Muslims, Egyptians, Syrians (mostly Sunni Muslims exiled by the elder Assad), Kosovars, Indonesians, Guyanese-Muslims and Ethiopian-Muslims. There are also a fair number of African Americans who practice one form of Islam or another.
As anyone who knows these neighborhoods can tell you, Muslim women with scarves covering their hair or even with their entire bodies veiled, are not an uncommon sight; the good news is that nobody cares one way or the other.
Americans should be proud of the fact that Muslims are far more easily integrated into American society than they are into European societies.
None of this means, however, that building a 13 story Mosque and Islamic Center so close to Ground Zero is not a deliberately provocative act. Is it a quest for peaceful coexistence or is it an act of defiance?
Do we really need more deliberately provocative acts?
Just a few coments:
(a) Jihad is not one of the five pillars of Islam. Even the most rudimentary research will tell you that.
(b) the Mosque/cultural center is a block and a half away from the WTC towers, but withing the WTC complex, building 7 if memory serves. The question is why is this Imam representing his religious institution as being part of the WTC?
(c) Dr. Al-Faisal purports to be a Sufi, but where is he getting his 100 million dollars from? And moreover, why are people donating money to him when so many tekkes, mosques and shrines holy to Sufism are delapidated or just flat out destroyed in Turkey, Syria and the Balkans? People are rightly concerned that is a front for a more intolerant form of the Sunni confession or that outside forces would use the mosque as a symbol for a successful raid of the ghazi in anti-Western propoganda. For an analogy, look at the problems that Seville is having with Grand Mosque built by the Emir of Sharjah. If these frank discussions ruffled modern sensibilities and the end result is avoiding the tensions in Seville, it will have been worth it.
(e) “The calls of so many on the Right (many of whom not only do not live in New York City, but do not consider it part of “real America”) to bar the construction of this building are only further evidence of ignorance and Islamophobia. Ignorance not only about Islam, but also about New York City and how here, unlike in much of America, Mosques and large (non-Christian) religious cultural centers are not much of a big deal.”
Do you feel better Mr. Cristol? That is an awfully big brush you are using there for a happy, anti-German bigot who is probably anti-dentite as well.
My experience with Islam is limited to Pakistan and Egypt, and I wish I could be so optimistic. I can believe there’re individuals around for whom Islam is a way to personally connect with God and the basis of their family traditions – holidays, festivities, mournings, names, calendar… But there’s such a thing as Islamic mainstream, and it is emphatically NOT tolerant and has nothing to say to offers of coexistence. You say – discount Koran, and aHadith, and the whole doctrine of Dar el-Harb, because I’ve met nice Muslims who have no jihadist plans. I say – sorry, but until I see at least one mass movement of Muslims against jihad, I stay with my informed bigotry.
Mr. Mead, I am greatly disappointed that you wrote this post in haste, without a few hours of research, and mildly join in the terrible blogoshpere misjudgment of why the ADL issued their statement.
The opinion against is hardly limited to the “right wing”, nor is this a “wedge issue” in New York City. The July 1 Quinnipiac Poll of registered New York voters was 52% against, 31% for, with 17% undecided. 66% of Jews and 66% of Catholics were against. Most important factor is this opinion: “…A mosque near Ground Zero would “foster understanding and teach people that not all Muslims are terrorists,” 42 percent of New York City voters say. Of this group, 68 percent support the mosque. Another 42 percent of voters say the mosque “is an insult to the memory and families of 9/11 victims.” Of this group, 93 percent oppose the mosque. …”
The opinion in favor is greatly skewed to liberal Protestants/no religious affiliation under 35 with a college degree who tend to live in Manhattan and, most important factor, do NOT believe it “is an insult to the memory and families of 9/11 victims.”
Read the data for question (I cannot format the table to appear correctly)
24a. Do you support or oppose this proposal?
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1302.xml?ReleaseID=1473
THIS is the most thoughtful analysis I have read, by Luisita Lopez Torregrosa, PoliticsDaily.com Correspondent:
“…here in the city where it happened we’ve been wrestling with this issue for a while.
This is a place that is sacred ground to millions of Americans, but most principally to the loved ones of the victims — wives, parents, children, friends — who haven’t let the passage of nearly 10 years diminish the memory of that infernal day and of the cruel sight of bodies falling from the sky.
Adding to the pain, for some, are plans to place in the same neighborhood a 15-story mega-mosque and Islamic community center. Its size, its location, and its very name — the Cordoba House, so named after Cordoba, Spain, the capital of Muslim conquerors — conjures up Islamicists’ dreams of triumphalism. To an array of critics, the very idea is offensive; its construction would be a desecration.
…
On the one side are those who believe the United States closed its eyes for too long to the very real threat of global Islamic radicalism and the murderous attacks that Muslim terrorists perpetrate around the world. Why should we pretend that we could ever find common ground with such people or be allies to nations that export such ideology while they prevent the construction of a single temple or church on their own lands, while they send mullahs, mosques and hate-filled textbooks to ours?
On the other hand are those who believe that America’s very strength is that we welcome all faiths and creeds and peoples; that, yes, you can build a mosque — many mosques — in New York, even near the site of a terrorist tragedy and that this doesn’t weaken our resolve or our image in the world. It strengthens them.
Whatever side you’re on, it’s fitting that the fight over the proposed Cordoba mosque is happening here. It goes to the root of so much that defines New York City: freedom of speech, freedom of religion, politics, assembly, beliefs, and freedom to be a jerk, insensitive, greedy, stupid, intolerant and silly.
…
Why would the American Muslim leader Feisal Abdul Rauf choose a site near Ground Zero to build a 15-story community center for Muslims? New York City has dozens of mosques which apparently are getting along fine in their neighborhoods. Why go to the very place that Americans most associate with Islamic terrorism?
…”
for the politics part, read the whole post at:
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07/23/ground-zero-mosque-the-battle-beyond-palin/
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf,on September 30, 2001, was interviewed on 60 Minutes, “…[Ed]Bradley: And throughout the Muslim world, there is also strong opposition to America’s foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East because of its support of Israel and economic sanctions against Iraq.
[Imam]Faisal: it is a reaction against the US government politically, where we espouse principles of democracy and human rights, and where we ally ourselves with oppressive regimes in many of these countries.
Bradley: Are you in any way suggesting that we in the United States deserved what happened?
Faisal: I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened, but united states policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.
Bradley: You say that we’re an accessory? How?
Faisal: Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA. …”
from the transcript at http://www.islamfortoday.com/60minutes.htm
Imam Rauf, the chair of the Cordoba Initiative. “is a key member in the Malaysian-based Perdana Global Peace Organization, the single biggest donor ($366,000 as of June 2010) to the Free Gaza Movement.” [proof is his page at perdana4peace.org] “In July 2010, journalist Andrew McCarthy revealed that “What’s Right with Islam” was originally published in Malaysia under a different title: “A Call to Prayer from the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawa in the Heart of America Post-9/11″. What’s Right with Islam” [I can not prove this] Both quotes are from discoverthenetworks.org, a guide to the radical left, which is why I tried to verify both statements.
It would be useful to question what “Islamic Dawa in the Heart of America Post-9/11″ means (Dawa is proselytizing all aspects of Islam), and who is funding this project.
Read this June 6, 2010 op-ed, where Jeff Jacoby mostly interviewed “…the views of leading Muslim moderates — Muslims known for their commitment to tolerance and pluralism, and for their opposition to all forms of radical Islam….”
“…One such individual is Zuhdi Jasser, a physician, US Navy veteran, and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy.
Jasser reminisced last week about his family’s history of building mosques in the heartland communities where they lived. His parents, Syrian immigrants to the United States, helped create the Fox Valley Islamic Center in Neenah, Wis., in 1980. “This was during the Iranian hostage crisis,’’ he recalled, “and some of the local residents wanted the Zoning Commission to prevent the mosque from going forward.’’ But the commissioners gave their blessing to the project, and the modest mosque — the construction budget was just $80,000 — became part of the neighborhood. Later the family later moved to western Arkansas, where they joined with others to create the Islamic Center of Fort Smith. As recently as March, Jasser came out in support of Muslims in Sheboygan, Wis., whose plans for a new place of worship were meeting with vocal resistance.
But he adamantly opposes the ground zero mosque.
“For us, a mosque was always a place to pray, to be together on holidays — not a way to make an ostentatious architectural statement,’’ Jasser said. “Ground zero shouldn’t be about promoting Islam. It’s the place where war was declared on us as Americans.’’ To use that space for Muslim outreach, he argues, is “the worst form of misjudgment.’’
Equally opposed is Stephen Suleyman Schwartz, a devout Muslim and director of the Center for Islamic Pluralism in Washington.
Schwartz notes that the spiritual leader of the Cordoba Initiative, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, describes himself as a Sufi — a Muslim focused on Islamic mysticism and spiritual wisdom. But “building a 15-story Islamic center at ground zero isn’t something a Sufi would do,’’ according to Schwartz, also a practitioner of Sufism. “Sufism is supposed to be based on sensitivity toward others,’’ yet Cordoba House comes across as “grossly insensitive.’’ He rejects Rauf’s stance that a highly visible Muslim presence at ground zero is the way to make a statement opposing what happened on 9/11. Better, in his view, is the approach of many Muslims “who hate terrorism and who have gone privately to the site and recited prayers for the dead silently and unperceived by others.’’
Ali al-Ahmed, a Saudi native who founded the Institute for Gulf Affairs and is an advocate for civil rights and religious freedom in the Middle East, hopes for the best from Cordoba House. “A mosque should be a good thing,’’ he told me. But he worries about the number of Americans who may be “hurt and upset’’ by the project, and wonders whether a mosque is really the best thing for Muslims to build so close to ground zero. Why not something less emotionally charged, he asks — a social-service agency, perhaps, or an assisted living center for the elderly?
Muslims must take the feelings of Americans into account, Ahmed contends. He cites no less an Islamic authority than the Imam Ali, Mohammed’s influential son-in-law. “Reconciliation of your differences,’’ says Imam Ali in the collection of teachings known as the Peak of Eloquence, “is more worthy than all prayers and fasting.’’
Will a mosque at ground zero make reconciliation more likely? Or will it needlessly rub salt in the unhealed wounds of 9/11?”
© Copyright 2010 Globe Newspaper Company.
copied from http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/0...
Finally, the proposed Park51 (new name after that Quinnipiac poll came out), is architecturally out-of-context in both scale, height, and facade design.
As a New Yorker who had no direct connection to the 9/11 atrocity, I am appalled that anyone would choose to build any kind of denominational high-rise only 600 feet from Ground Zero. There is no need to build any such facility at 45 Park Place. It will tear New York City apart, and is already a heated political issue in the contest for governor and the 13thCD.
Mostly, if it must be built, it should be contextual architecture, like Scandinavia House on Park Avenue between 37-38th.
Do not be fooled by the approvals of Mayor Bloomberg or the Community Board. You can research the still-ongoing controversy over the new Yankee Stadium or the water filtration plant in Van Cortlandt Park to see what happens when a Community Board asks to be involved.
Blogpost in haste, repent never?
Newt Gingrich, who is, of course, running for President, has come out against the building of the Mosque and he has done so in a rather muscular way. The Mosque in question is being sponsored by an organization called “Cordoba House.” Gingrich believes that that name “Cordoba House is a deliberately insulting term.
He says,
“It refers to Cordoba, Spain – the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over the Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the world’s third-largest mosque complex…
Today, some of the Mosque’s backers insist this term is being used to “symbolize interfaith cooperation” when, in fact, every Islamist in the world recognizes Cordoba as a symbol of Islamic conquest. It is a sign of their contempt for Americans and their confidence in our historic ignorance that they would deliberately insult us this way.”
Gingrich is certainly correct in his assertion that historically, Muslims have had a habit of celebrating their victories by converting spaces sacred to other religions into Muslim holy places. The construction of the Dome of the Rock by the Islamic conquerors of Jerusalem and the conversion of the Hagia Sophia in what is now Istanbul from one of the most important churches in Christendom into a Mosque come to mind immediately.
Gingrich has also pointed out that over 100 mosques already exist in New York and that very few Muslims actually live in the area where this Mosque and cultural center is to be build. In light of this, he wonders why this particular site was selected.
Gingrich has also asserted that over 50 percent of the Mosques in the United States have been financed by the Saudis; that is, the Saudis hold the mortgages on 50 percent of all Mosques built in the United States. Gingrich points out that building churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia is illegal and that in many Muslim nations converting from Islam to another religion is punishable by death. Gingrich has also mentioned that he finds the story of Somali exile (later exiled from the Netherlands) Ayan Hirsi Ali to be emblematic of everything wrong with the Muslim world.
Like him or hate him, Gingrich’s take on all of this is certainly provocative.
my apologies to Mr. Mead. Just realized this post was written by Jonathan Cristol, who should have done a few hours of research.
Foxman is a man of many distinctions – but a rabbi he’s not.
It’s always shocking to see how easily the majority ignores the rights of a despised minority. “Religious freedom? Rule of law? But they’re scum!” Scum have rights, and zoning laws apply to everyone equally.
Anyway, I seriously doubt this “mosque” construction is going to have much of an impact. With the supposed total paranoia and rampant rumors on the Arab street, our enemies will believe anything: all this controversy is is a stupid American wedge issue.
“The calls of so many on the Right (many of whom not only do not live in New York City, but do not consider it part of “real America”) to bar the construction of this building are only further evidence of ignorance and Islamophobia. Ignorance not only about Islam, but also about New York City and how here, unlike in much of America, Mosques and large (non-Christian) religious cultural centers are not much of a big deal.”
My goodness, what a bigoted statement. More evidence of ignorance in a city whose residents can generally not find my state on a map. Take the speck out of your own eye, Mr. Cristol. I do not think you are worth publishing here at Via Meadia, and certainly not worth reading.
One more correction: Abe Foxman is NOT a rabbi as Cristol wrote: ” I am a great admirer of Rabbi Foxman and the Anti-Defamation League…”
Why don’t Muslims show a little tolerance and understanding and NOT build on ground zero?
My thanks to Chess and K2K for pointing out that Abe Foxman is not a rabbi. It has been corrected in the text. He performed the wedding of a friend and thus I made an assumption without double-checking. I regret the error (and also will have to find out how he was able to perform the wedding!).
As to K2K’s second point. Nowhere did I say that the majority of people anywhere supported this Center/Mosque being built in this location. Quite the contrary, my point is 1) that it is irrelevant, our constitution is designed both to prevent the tyranny of the majority and to separate church/mosque and state; and 2) that this is a microlocal issue and that the views of people outside the community board responsible and the local residents are also irrelevant.
There is also a reasonably good, if not wholly satisfactory, explanation for the location of the building. Downtown NYC is the only area I can think of that is zoned for such a large structure and that has a significant number of Muslims in the area (during the workday). The Muslim neighborhoods in Brooklyn do not have any buildings so large, and thus the location is not without any logic other than triumphalism.
I would also add that I too am a New Yorker, who did know people who worked at the WTC; and whose wife was nearby that day. I know many more like me, and I find the decision to build there very distasteful (much more so than I let on in the post), but I must place this distaste against the reality of living in the United States (just as the people of Skokie once did) and I do not believe the government has the right to dictate the location of houses of worship.
Last, the people of Jerusalem have somehow managed to live with all sorts of churches (not to mention Muslim holy sites) near to the Western Wall (and a very large YMCA within walking distance as well) without panicking about Christian triumphalism.
That’s all for now. I appreciate the comments, especially as they seem to be from people who will probably agree with me on many of my future posts. A Lefty I am not, as you will likely soon discover.
All the best,
Jonathan Cristol
“government has no place dictating where a house of worship is located.” Bloomberg, approved by Mead….
Do the Wahhabi rulers of Saudi know this, and act on it?
Mr. Mead. It seems that there is a new game being played here under two sets of rules. We play fair and straight; they play down and dirty. We will not compromise our morals and ethics by playing as they do, they commend us about how upright and upstanding we are, all the while laughing behind their hands at what ingenuous dupes we are; if we are violent with them they remind us that Christ recommended turning the other cheek, and that we are hypocrites if we do not, even as they prepare to strike the second cheek because their prophet mandated that! Behaviours we see as strengths they see as chinks in our armour through which to attack wound and kill!
All this talk of We and They you say?! Can’t we all just get along, you say?
Well, They will go along with that, will build the mosque, will amplify the muzzein’s call five times a day over the skyline of NY (actually THAT is how far the influence extends. saying that the Mosque is two blocks from GZ is a red herring!) and if one mosque is acceptable would two or ten around that holy plot be acceptable too?!
The Sioux declared the Little Big Horn killing field as sacred ground, and protected it as such with an armed presence for decades. For the Wahhabi Ustads Ground Zero is just such a Holy Place and the Mosque is the core of the defence!
Personally.
9/11 happened in NY, but not to NY only. 9/11 was an attack on America and all that it stands for. Therefore I find the negation of any commentary by anyone other than resident New Yorkers to be simplistic.
Also simplistic is that this is truly and only a place of worship and that this is about freedom of religion. I would check around the United States for some mosques that are indeed only places of worship and some quite frankly that are not. A quick look see in the Northern Virginia area might speak to that.
It is also unnecessarily provocative, in my opinion. And, in my opinion, it dishonors all who died and suffered from the events of 9/11.
I find it tedious at best that increasingly American freedoms are being used to justify actions that could potentially damage or bury those freedoms.
Natural but not rational that is the question.
My objection is in making Abe Foxman the issue instead of the very real controversy which will not go away, and much of the anger IS local.
There is absolutely no need to build a 13-story facility to serve the workday population.
Park Place, an 18th century scale street, is not convenient for most of the Financial District.
St. Peter’s Church (Roman Catholic) is at 16 Barclay St, between Park Place and Vesey Street north border of Ground Zero, current building is from 1836. “Old St. Peter’s is the Mother Church of Catholic New York, as it is the oldest Roman Catholic parish in New York City and New York State.
…The body of the Rev. Mychal Judge, Chaplain to the New York City Fire Department and officially the first casualty of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attack, was brought to St. Peter’s by firefighters and laid before the altar.”
full text and photos at: http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/StPeterRC.html
St. Peter’s has a permanent display of a cross made of the steel beams salvaged from the destruction.
Perhaps that helps explain why 66% of Catholics surveyed by Quinnipiac oppose the Cordoba House on the next block.
Community Boards learned their lesson (not to protest) from the new Yankee Stadium when THAT CB got fired, solely because they wanted to be involved because their parkland was being confiscated.
There are two muslim congregations in the North Central Bronx (where I sometimes live)are struggling financially to have their places of worship. Why does Imam Rauf not help them?
Foxman did not ask “the government to dictate the location of houses of worship.”
He asked Rauf to re-consider the location in the interest of actually improving interfaith relations.
When I consider St. Peter’s, and the recent convent sale controversy on Staten Island, I am beginning to think Foxman stuck his neck out for Catholics, and what has already become a divisive political issue in the gubernatorial race and the 13th CD, putting Jews in the middle as the GOP fights for votes.
Imam Rauf has already failed in his mission.
The anger and pain will not go away.
Maybe instead of building a mosque near ground zero so soon after 9/11 — which is provocative on the face of it — the good imam should go around showing the world what a moderate Muslim is like. Then, if he is convincing, he might build such a Mosque.
“There is also a reasonably good, if not wholly satisfactory, explanation for the location of the building. Downtown NYC is the only area I can think of that is zoned for such a large structure and that has a significant number of Muslims in the area (during the workday). The Muslim neighborhoods in Brooklyn do not have any buildings so large, and thus the location is not without any logic other than triumphalism.” (Jonathan Cristol)
I respectfully disagree. The Astoria/Long Island City neighborhoods in Queens are home to large numbers of Muslims and there are numerous buildings 15 stories or higher in the area. The area from 39th Avenue to the south; Ditmars Boulevard to the North; Steinway Street to the East and 21st Street to the West is populated by thousands of Muslims from Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, Egypt, Bosnia, Albania, Macedonia and even Kosovo. There are also a small number of Muslims in the area who emigrated from the former Soviet Republics. Steinway Street, (named for the famous piano company that still produces pianos in the area) is affectionately referred to as “little Cairo” because of all the establishments on the street owned by Egyptian merchants.
The area has numerous tall buildings including the CITIBANK building which has more than 35 floors and numerous residential apartment buildings along the East River (opposite the United Nations) which are 20 stories or higher. 21st Street in Queens (which provides ingress and egress from the 59th Street Bridge) has large numbers of residential and office buildings 15 stories or higher. The area is also home to several movie studios including Kaufman and Silvercup studios both of which have mosques for neighbors.
This would be the perfect neighborhood for the Cordoba Center Project. And it is close to downtown (one subway stop on the 7 train). By the way, Queens not Brooklyn is home to the largest number of Muslims living in New York City and a Muslim Cultural Center/Mosque in this area would be convenient for many of them.
The Muslims in these neighborhoods live in harmony with their neighbors from other ethnic/religious groups and while a small number of idiots might object, the area would probably welcome the Cordoba Center Project.
This is a far better location for this project and it would reduce all or most of the animosity associated with it; unless inspiring animoisty was the intention in the first place.
don’t want a mosque don’t allow it. it is your country. But don’t try to insult Islam. it was (and it still is) this hate that that has given way to Islam bashing which then resulted into extreme muslim reaction. don’t you people see what Israel is doing to the muslims of Palestine? what you did to the muslims in Iraq? what is India doing to the muslims of Kashmir and what it did to the muslims of gujarat. hate gives way to hate. do bad and have worst. this is how it is. Islam teaches love and tolerance. study islam before you make such a sweeping comment. reaction of a group of poeople does not mean it is a reflection of Islam. and those who have commented about jihad first learn what does it mean and what it is. jihad means ‘to struggel’ against evil which is there in every religion and constitution. armed jihad against a nation or country can only be declared by a proper muslim government, rest is not jihad, it is fisad (trouble).
“Downtown NYC is the only area I can think of that is zoned for such a large structure and that has a significant number of Muslims in the area (during the workday).” (Jonathan Cristol)
WigWag and I definitely get into the micro-details of NYC geography and demographics!
The geology is what dictates the height of a building in NYC, then the as-of-right zoning, financial consideration, and airspace rights define the upper limit of any building.
A 15 story building is not that high for NYC, so 45 Park Place has no significance.
Astoria/LIC would make sense for the reasons WigWag defines. It is also just across the East River from the United Nations building.
Here is the NYT article that explained the proposal from Dec 8 2009 (with street map and slide show)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html
“…The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.”
“We want to push back against the extremists,” added Imam Feisal, 61….”
Based on the slide show, it seems the use of the existing building for Friday prayer has been for many street vendors who work in the area. But, the fact that part of the airplane fell through the roof (photo in slide show) on 9/11 was very important in Imam Rauf’s location choice, not proximity to service the workday population, especially since most street vendors tend to work the higher traffic locations and tourist attractions downtown.
NYC has a noise code since July, 2008, so no one can broadcast anything that “will amplify the muzzein’s call five times a day over the skyline of NY”
Thanks to Khan for explaining jihad versus fisad.
Anyone interested in how Israel treats muslims should read journalist Khaled Abu Toameh for a balanced view:
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1433/arabs-and-muslims-run-to-israel
Also at hudson-ny.org is a July 30 article digging into the ideology and financing behind the Mosque at Ground Zero.
I’m sorry but I do have a problem with Islam.
As an ethical code it advocates
The Murder of infidels to spread the faith
The Lying to infidels
The Enslavement, Rape, and Pillaging of infidels
Its legal code (Shariah) is the definition of “Cruel and Unusual punishment” stoning, maiming, etc…, and is suitable only for backward cultures, not for modern civilized, culturally advancing peoples.
Islam is incompatible with the most advanced culture of man (American Culture), and shouldn’t be engage, but rather defeated.
None of us (including me) has provided ample data to support where such a structure should go.
I agree that LIC would be an excellent venue (though hardly convenient for UN workers to pop over in the middle of the day, except by speedboat or jetpack). However, I am thinking more about Muslims who are coming to work from neighborhoods in NYC, NJ, Westchester, and CT where there are not enough Muslims to support a Mosque or Islamic Center.
Do I have those statistics? No. But there are certainly a large number of Muslims working on Wall Street… in finance not only as street vendors. Perhaps not large in terms of percentage, but large in terms of raw numbers.
I might well be wrong about this, but the location theoretically makes sense to me (and there is a great deal of the outerboroughs in which a 15 story building would very much stand out).
It is interesting to me that I am placed in the position of defending a structure that, in all honesty, I could care less about. My feelings are only about the matter of discrimination based on religion and the role of church and state.
Anyway, it is a credit to you all that I was compelled to respond. I try very hard not to respond to comments on blogs and have only responded one time before today. I appreciate the tough criticism.
Jonathan Cristol
Juan Williams of NPR and Fox News stated the case well. On Fox News Sunday, he said that although the imam has a right to do what he wants with his own property, as a matter of decency he should not build the mosque.
Williams said that the proposed mosque and the imam’s actions are “a thumb in the eye to so many people who lost their lives and went through the trauma there. It’s not promoting dialogue or understanding. In fact, it’s polarizing. So it’s not achieving his stated goal. And for that reason, I just think he’s wrong to do it.”
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2010/08/01/a-mosque-at-ground-zero/
Lapse into bigorty? Islamophobia? I thought this blog had some kind of committment to civility.
Sorry – copied the wrong url.
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/fox-news-sunday/
“A Lefty I am not, as you will likely soon discover.”
Glad to see WRM found another hippy puncher to blog with him. The blogsphere is so lacking in that predilection.
K2K: fabulously informative posts here!
I think anyone who doesn’t realize why the planned center is supposed to be named “Cordoba House” simply shows naiveté or ignorance:
“Osama bin Laden’s deputy explicitly linked the destruction of the World Trade Centre with events in southern Spain 512 years ago, by referring, in a post-9/11 broadcast, to ‘the tragedy in al-Andalus’”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article1044733.ece
Jonathan Cristol post of Aug 1, 8.58pm:
“Last, the people of Jerusalem have somehow managed to live with all sorts of churches (not to mention Muslim holy sites) near to the Western Wall (and a very large YMCA within walking distance as well) without panicking about Christian triumphalism.”
Well, I don’t live in Jerusalem, but just south of Tel Aviv, but I can assure you that Muslim triumphalism – namely the widespread, entirely mainstream denial of any legitimate Jewish connection to Jerusalem, including the denial of the existence of the Temple on the Temple Mount – is causing a lot of problems. Indeed, the unwillingness to acknowledge the historic Jewish attachment to Jerusalem was a major factor that prevented an agreement at Taba in January 2001, as both Israel’s then-foreign minister Shlomo Ben Ami and Palestinian chief negotiator Erekat have said. (Ben Ami in a long Haaretz interview in September 2001, and Erekat in an appearance on Jordanian TV about 2 years ago).
Re. your argument that only New Yorkers should care what is built on and around Ground Zero — would you also argue that only New Yorkers should have cared what happened on 9/11?
You can find much in both the scriptures and the history of Judaism and Christianity to question in exactly the same way. Yet Christians and Jews have found ways to separate the wheat from the chaff and to come to a more spiritual and authentic form of faith. Why must Islam be different?
Because they were both challenged from within and without. Christianity started to move towards the situation in which people could separate church from state and still consider themselves good and God-loving, when Reformation and Renaissance exploded the papacy. Judaism was tested by 2000 years of stubborn and totally voluntary survival in the sea of hostility which could be at any moment overcame by simple act of throwing your religion away. Islam was never truly challenged, neither without nor within. Until the Oil Age, it was allowed to languish on the European periphery, unimportant and nonthreatening. At the onset of the Rush for Oil and the Cold War, Islam was cosseted, courted and accepted “as is” by the West. And while in Turkey Islam was suppressed to bring forth a separate Turkish identity, in Arab countries and Pakistan Islam was hard-wired into their very national being, and neither pan-Arabism nor Baathism tried to challenge or erode the religion’s place in the society – rather, they sought to co-opt and mollify it. So here we are.
It would be stupid of me to contend that Islam is impervious to reform from within. But for that to happen, those reformists need to discover a safe base from which to operate, and the West should make the cost of not reforming clear. As long as we pretend that Islam as it is today is a “religion of peace”, completely safe for Jews, Christians, women, gays, apostates from Islam and caricaturists, and embrace as a “moderate” someone who isn’t ready to condemn Hamas for its deliberate killing of civilians, we will not advance the reform an inch.
The WTC mosque is not intended as a religious establishment promoting peaceful religious values; it’s purpose is as a victory monument and proof of dominance.
This type victory commemorative is typical of Islam, where the Dome of the Rock, Hindu temples in India, and Christian chuches in Turkey and Europe are converted to mosques as a statement of triumph and propaganda for Islam.
There will only be only one final winner in this conflict and we are foolish to concede their claims of victory achieved by cowardly attacks. .
To be perfectly blunt about this, I think the problem here is that you, Mr. Cristol, are an elitist. You say on one hand that you understand the people’s feelings of common people but then go on to denegrate them with hate words such as Islamophobia and bigotry. Some day, the common people will find their voice and will demand leaders who respect their feelings and talk to them instead of talking down to them.
WRM makes the entirely legitimate and correct point that Islam is as capable of reforming its most extreme tendencies as any other religion. He also points out that the overwhelming number of the world’s Muslims are peace-loving, decent and non-radical. This is also true.
But there are other equally important factors that he fails to mention. There are 48 majority Muslim nations in the world today; the vast majority of these are autocratic and remarkably intolerant of religions other than Islam. In fact, many of these nations aren’t even particularly tolerant of the practice of forms of Islam different from the form practiced by the majority.
Even moderate Muslims feel perfectly justified in suggesting that actions that they feel demean their religion should not be tolerated in the West. So, for example, it’s not just radical Islamists who are outraged if the Prophet is depicted in pictures, paintings or cartoons, large numbers of more moderate Muslims are too. They object even if a likeness of the Prophet is depicted in a manner that is not insulting; their religion precludes physical depictions of the prophet and they expect that even people who are not Islamic should, out of respect, refrain from committing what they think is a blasphemous act. What they are arguing for is common courtesy or respect.
Yet many of these same Muslims are insulted at the suggestion that New Yorkers and other Americans, who are by and large Jewish and Christian (but also Muslim, Hindu and members of other religions) should be insulted by the establishment of a Muslim cultural center in close proximity to a site that has acquired (because of an attack by Muslims ) an iconic status. The hypocracy is remarkable.
In the late 1970s Carmelite nuns erected a cross within very close proximity of Auschwitz. A few years later they erected several more crosses visible from block 11, the camp’s major torture chamber. The nuns correctly asserted that Catholics as well as Jews were murdered at Auschwitz; they correctly suggested that the site was the location of the martyrdom of Catholic Saint Maximilian Kolbe; and they pointed out that Pope John Paul II had said mass near the Concentration Camp.
Nevertheless, many Jews were correctly outraged. Auschwitz is a site that is highly pertinent to the modern Jewish experience that is indeed unique. When the Jewish community asked that the crosses be moved, they weren’t suggesting that all Catholics or even most bore responsibility for the behavior of the Nazis nor were they suggesting that Poles were uniquely to blame. What they were asking for was sensitivity and respect.
Muslims of all stripes also ask for sensitivity and respect; they are entitled to it. But isn’t it the height of insensitivity and a sign of disrespect to build this Mosque/cultural center so close to the site of the largest terrorist attack ever to take place on American soil?
Don’t all the three great Abrahamic faiths have one version or another of the call to “do on to others…”
The Wall Street Journal has really good coverage including the first interview with Daisy Khan, wife and partner of Imam Rauf who is still in Malaysia. Malaysia’s perdana4peace.org is primarily devoted to “breaking Israel’s siege of Gaza” – Oops, they totally redesigned their website since July 31 and URL, and there is no longer any direct link from the new homepage to Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf’s own page, which there was on July 31 (surely a coincidence): http://www.perdana4peace.org/agenda.aspx?x=3
The name was changed to Park51 after the June 6 protest. Now Khan does say prayer space room for 2,000 people (that would take at least four floors on that site), and no money has yet been raised. Still not clear if non-muslims are welcome except for the proposed restaurant.
WSJ also has great op-ed: “the coercive power of politically correct pieties and the unyielding political assault on all dissenters is on full display” as Dorothy Rabinowitz writes today in the WSJ. In the same essay, “Liberal Piety and the Memory of 9/11″, Rabinowitz wrote: “…Dr. Zuhdi Jasser—devout Muslim, physician, former U.S. Navy lieutenant commander and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy—says there is every reason to investigate the center’s funding under the circumstances. Of the mosque so near the site of the 9/11 attacks, he notes “It will certainly be seen as a victory for political Islam.” …”
The NYC Landmark Preservation Commission (all appointed by Mayor Bloomberg) voted 9-0 to NOT landmark the mid-19th century building. I agree – the location was forest in 1609 very close to the Hudson shore.(http://the.manahattaproject.org has the 1609 visualization map), then farmland. By 1769, the streets were defined. After the Revolution, Park Place was destined for live/work warehouse merchandise brokers, with all the new docks expanding north along the Hudson. 45 Park Place is just such a merchant warehouse. Rauf and Khan missed their true opportunity: create a ‘bazaari’ of all the wonderful foods and crafts from the entire Dar es Islam in a neighborhood crying for more retail.
In a moment of universalist karma, an hour or so later, Conde Nast announced a tentative deal to relocate to the new Freedom Tower at 1 WTC.
If Imam Rauf builds his 15-story mosque+, there is a good chance his prayer rooms may align with direct views of the fashionistas at Vogue, and the secular humanists at The New Yorker and Vanity Fair.
The real tragedy is this is a REAL campaign issue, and it did not have to be. The WSJ also has an essay by William McGurn on WigWag’s topic:
“WTC Mosque, Meet the Auschwitz Nuns Pope John Paul offers a model of tolerance for a heated controversy”
I wonder if the architecture critics will be as intimidated as so many others. The current proposal is so out-of-scale and context for 18th-century street.
This type of “slap in the face” tactic is ruining the wholesome goodness of America! This is not an isolated instance. It’s starting to happen all over. I just heard of plans to build a Catholic church within two blocks of an elementary school. This after the multiple rapes perpetuated on our children by Catholic priests! Utter Outrage – shame on all who approve this church! Have they already forgotten the homosexual molestation of our American children? Are our children to be forced to look upon this den of pedophilia every time they walk to school? The Catholics laugh at us Americans. It makes me sick. This should not be allowed to happen.
chris p,
That might be a similar situation, if canon law and the pope approved of pedophilia, and the priests building the church refused to condemn it.
A very UN-necessary part of the controversy is that there is no defined plan for Park 51/ Cordoba House, so a lot of reaction to date was based on the ABSENCE of a defined plan. They are still in Phase 1, which includes the development of a detailed plan and facility design as explained at their website: http://www.park51.org/landmark.htm
It would have been very helpful if Imam Rauf and his partners had remembered all the controversy of the first mosque in Manhattan,(displacing the poor tenants, the design critiques that resulted in a change in architects; Libya funding that changed to funding from all OIC countries; and some NIMBY). It is a beautiful building complex at 96th Street and Lexington Avenue.
that opened in 1992.
We are where we are.
New York City has kept WAL-MART OUT. And WAL-MART tried really hard to come to poorest urban county in America, The Bronx. But, Wal-Mart gave up when they realized they were not welcome.
I remember the people in The Bronx were really upset to be denied access to Wal-Mart due to an odd combination of Manhattan-politico-snobbery and union resistance.
imo, chris p’s comment at 12:37 am should be removed from this thread for an inappropriate and offensive attempt at humor.
“Yet Christians and Jews have found ways to separate the wheat from the chaff and to come to a more spiritual and authentic form of faith.”
Since there are so many versions of both Christians and Jews, which denominations or movements have the most spiritual and authentic form of faith for both of these religions?
MUCH of this controversy might have been mitigated if only this July 24, 2010 interview had been more accessible (and it may be that the very diverse American-Muslim community may actually shape the final plan for Park51 since they seem to be asking the truly hard questions):
http://www.altmuslim.com/a/a/n/3866
“In the wake of growing public debate, we ask Sharif El-Gamal, the CEO of Soho Properties and the developer of Park51, some hard questions about the plans to develop a Muslim-run community center in lower Manhattan.”
Question: “What are Imam Feisal’s specific roles and responsibilities in the project? If he is not in a leadership/executive position, then who is really “in charge” and making the decisions?”
ANSWER: “Imam Feisal Abdul-Rauf is as an interfaith leader and a visionary in this project. He has served the lower Manhattan community faithfully for over 27 years. He is supported by political and religious leaders across New York City for his commitment to moderation and tolerance and his years of work in bringing people together.
Park51 is an independent project led by Muslim Americans. This project will be separate from The Cordoba Initiative and ASMA. The next step is forming a non-profit and applying for tax-exempt status. Imam Feisal and I are serving as the project managers until then. This non-profit will be run by an Executive Director, yet to be selected, support staff, and a 23-member Board of Directors.
Imam Feisal will be one of the Directors, and will oversee the Cordoba House, which will direct the interfaith programming within Park51. We have not yet selected the other members of the Board of Directors, but we will be picking people very carefully, based on their record of leadership, relevant experience and positive contribution to New York City and the country. The board will not be limited by religion.
The mosque will be run by a separate non-profit whose Board of Directors will reflect a broad range of experience. While the mosque will be located in the planned final structure of Park51, it will be a distinct non-profit. Neither Park51 nor the mosque, which hasn’t been named yet, will tolerate any kind of illegal or un-American activity and rhetoric.”
Norwegian Shooter makes an excellent point.
The idea that the hijackers and Islamic terrorists have “twisted Islam” or do not represent “real Islam” I have always found deeply flawed. There are multiple interpretations of all religions (that I am aware of) and who are we to judge which version is the one we find “correct.” I don’t really think any of us know which is “the right” interpretation. We can know what interpretation of our religion we believe in, and we can know what interpretation of another religion suits our interests and try to promote it. Statements that go as far as “correct” and “incorrect” trouble me. I may post about this sometime so I’ll leave it at that.
Jonathan Cristol
Jonathan: a few thoughts about the various interpretations of the three Abrahamic religions that were stimulated by re-reading the 2004 NYT article about how observant Jews who pray (and need a minyan of ten) three times a day, and observant Muslims who pray five times a day have carved out hundreds of spaces in midtown and downtown Manhattan. “Prayer Amid the Office Machines” By: Joseph Berger
NY Times January 19th, 2004
In such a case, is there an issue if an observant Jew helps Hasidic Jews make a minyan?
Islam is far more complicated. The reporter Aziz Poonawalla who interviewed Sharif El-Gamal for altmuslim.com is a Dawoodi Bohra, (Hindi: दवूदि बोह्रा, Arabic: داؤدی بوہرہ) are the main branch of the Bohras, a Mustaʿlī subsect of Ismāʿīlī Shīʿa Islām. No wonder he asked such tough questions.
Reading about that sect of Shi’a made me realize that Islam has so many sects, and they apparently can not pray together.
If Park51 were being proposed by a Dawoodi Bohra, or, an Ahmadi*, there would be far less controversy.
* The Ahmadi seem to be the Mormons of Islam?
As to the use of violence to overthrow an unjust ruler, you need to wonder why Sayyid Qutb placed so much credibility on Ibn Tamiyya’s 14th century fatwa. Seems like selective reasoning to me.
After doing a lot of research on Islam, trying to cut through the stereotypical thinking that some may have about Islam and after engaging in many friendly one-on-one conversations with Muslims, it can be concluded that many in the West do not have a clue as to what is really going on.
The site of the mosque coupled with the height of the mosque establish a “symbolic dominance” over all other religious structures in a city. Sounds silly? Do your own research. The height of a premier mosque like the one proposed to be built in NYC is especially important.
Below is information adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond’s book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat. Hammond was born in Cape Town, South Africa in 1960, growing up as a Muslim in what was then called, Rhodesia.
Here are some of Hammond’s insights:
Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.
Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.
Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.
When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well..
Here’s how it works:
As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:
United States — Muslim 1%
Australia — Muslim 1.5%
Canada — Muslim 1.9%
China — Muslim 1.8%
Italy — Muslim 1.5%
Norway — Muslim 1.8%
At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:
Denmark — Muslim 2%
Germany — Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
Spain — Muslim 4%
Thailand — Muslim 4.6%
From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:
France — Muslim 8%
Philippines — 5%
Sweden — Muslim 5%
Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago — Muslim 5.8%
At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.
When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris , we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:
Guyana — Muslim 10%
India — Muslim 13.4%
Israel — Muslim 16%
Kenya — Muslim 10%
Russia — Muslim 15%
After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:
Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%
At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:
Bosnia — Muslim 40%
Chad — Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%
From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:
Albania — Muslim 70%
Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
Sudan — Muslim 70%
After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:
Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
Egypt — Muslim 90%
Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
Iran — Muslim 98%
Iraq — Muslim 97%
Jordan — Muslim 92%
Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan — Muslim 97%
Palestine — Muslim 99%
Syria — Muslim 90%
Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%
100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ — the Islamic House of Peace. Here there’s supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:
Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
Somalia — Muslim 100%
Yemen — Muslim 100%
Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.
“Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel.” — Leon Uris, ‘The Haj’
It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.
Today’s 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world’s population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and all other believers. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world’s population by the end of this century.
Some readers may view this as “hate speech.” Take a look around and counter this with any empirical evidence that provides a reasonable response to what has been posted. Study the percentages of the Muslim population in the countries mentioned above and determine for yourself whether or not the societal impact is indeed true…
I will offer you one easy data point you certainly got very wrong:
The massacrees here, if you’ll pardon the ugly coinage, were predominantly Muslims themselves, massacred by Catholics and Orthodox Christians. There have been no terror attacks since the war, and certainly no militia warfare.
The problem with truth, truthseeker, is that it’s never simple enough to distill into a blog post, and much less into a blog post comment.
Thank heaven this was written by guest-blogger and not Mr. Mead. My respect for Mr. Mead went down several notches until I noticed the interloper’s byline.